This website is distinctly Messianic, comprising the Abrahamic expression of faith, which is to the Jew and the Gentile. We affirm the fullness of truth contained in the Bible, embracing the cross and identifying with the convocations of the Lord. We reject the legalism of many in the Messianic movement. We reject the Babylonian Pagan traditions of the church. We consider all people Jews and Gentiles and those in all churches who are truly born of the Spirit of the living God to be one family. We proclaim a kingdom vision. We affirm and identify with God's plan and call to the Jewish people in these days and will support and stand with them as future brothers and sisters. Our slant is pre-trib! The Prophetic Scroll's aim is to glorify the living God.
I was saved in 1976 and became extremely interested in Bible prophecy, being an ex war-correspondent and photographer. My calling and aim is to share the dramatic, all-important issues of prophecy relating to our day. Please study these things further yourself. Please search the scriptures to “see if these be true.” The Prophetic Scroll stands as a watchman in these exciting and dangerous days.
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Edition 215. July 9nd 2014
Post tribulation rapture problems: Part two:
Post tribulation rapture problems: Part two:
In this edition I want to look at further post- tribulation rapture arguments and show just how they fail. Some of the arguments they present are compelling and some extremely short-sighted and not even worthy of comment.
If you combine this edition with 210, which is part one, the evidence in favour of a pre-tribulation rapture becomes overwhelming.
Enoch and the rapture:
Enoch is by far the best type of the pre-tribulation rapture. He was raptured alive in a flash into heaven, before God’s flood of judgment upon the earth in Noah’s time. I don’t believe that God does things like this without a significant purpose or message.
Genesis 5:24 “And Enoch walked with God; and he was not for God took him.”
Hebrews 11:5 “By faith Enoch was translated so that he did not see death, and was not found because God had translated him; for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.”
The word ‘Enoch” means ‘dedicated.’
Now, let’s look a little deeper into Enoch.
Jude1:14 “Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men, also, saying, ‘Behold the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment...”
In this verse Enoch sees the Second Coming judgement on the ungodly, the depraved, and the doomed. But note that our Lord is seen returning with many “saints”. The original word used here is never used for angels. It is only used for true believers and this is consistent!
“Saints,” used here is the Greek word ‘Hagios’ (Strongs G40 = Holy one), one separated from sin and dedicated to God.
There is no doubt that this word refers to true believers and not angels as is claimed by some post- tribbers.
Note that it is Enoch, the dedicated one, who himself was raptured before judgement on the world, who now teaches that the dedicated separated ones (saints) return with our Lord at the Second Coming! That, of course can only occur if these saints are in heaven to start with!
This verse alone is a powerful supporter of the pre-tribulation rapture.
Post-trib rapture rubbish:
●One of the arguments presented by the post tribbers is that the promise of land to Israel was fulfilled in 1350BC by Joshua and Solomon. The presumption is that none of the Biblical land promises are relevant today and Israel, Jerusalem and the Jews are simply the same as any other nation.
Obviously this is one of the roots of replacement theology, but more than that, it denies dozens of prophetic scriptures. They use this argument to claim that God will not rapture the Church as a separate entity from the Jews at large. They claim that the church is spiritual Israel. They like to claim the blessing of God but ignore the associated curses.
The church is not spiritual Israel and never has been. Israel is never used in scripture as the church. Israel is used in a restricted sense. In other words only those Jews who have faith in Messiah are part of the Church and not other way around. See Romans 9:6, Galatians 6:16.
●Another common post-trib view is that Christians are God’s true Jews and there is therefore no specific separate dealing with the Jews.
For this to be possible, allegorical interpretation of scripture must be applied and hundreds of verses just explained away.
●Many people surprisingly point to rapture prediction failures as a reason to claim that there will be no pre-tribulation rapture.
Yes there have been many predictive failures, but that does no harm to the command of God in numerous passages to watch, pray, and be ready. In fact the Bible says that as we approach the time, His watchmen will “see eye to eye” (Isaiah 52:8).Today there are more and more watchmen appearing on the scene and in agreement on a pre-tribulation rapture.
The above post-trib points require the dangerous allegorical method of interpretation to get rid of Israel and replace her with the church. These individuals become God’s editor!
Perhaps the biggest problem with the above points is that all fly in the face of exactly what is happening before our eyes now in reality. They would say that it’s just coincidence.
Matthew 19:28 “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”
Tribulation saints go into the Millennium with resorted longevity, but still with natural bodies. If we are to have a post- tribulation rapture, this means all believers will be in the same boat. But what do you do with all the verses of true believers receiving glorified, supernatural bodies?
Scripture requires people with supernatural, resurrected bodies and people in natural bodies in the Millennium.
Post tribbers have no explanation for the giant U-turn!
The image above explains the two views succinctly.
There are far too many verses of scripture that simply don’t fit the big U-turn belief, besides the fact of its pointlessness.
Daniel chapter nine explains the all-important seventy- weeks prophecy.
It is speaking of weeks of years, not days. I’m not going to get into all the calculations here; suffice to say that the Bible divides the time into sixty nine weeks of years and the final seven weeks of years. The first sixty nine weeks of years deal specifically with the Jews and Israel. The last seven weeks of years are clearly the tribulation period.
Although there is a separation between the sixty nine and the seventieth, they are the same in character. In other words, both deal exclusively with the Jews. The Church is not in the sixty nine weeks of years, nor will it be in the seventieth.
That’s an odd heading isn’t it?
The rapture of the Church as described in 1 Corinthians 15:51 takes place in a “moment in a twinkling of an eye” The original Greek word used for “moment” is “atomo” which is the shortest or quickest instant in time. It is an “atomic” moment. It occurs so fast no one sees it.
Believers are snatched up to meet the Lord in the air in an atomic moment. He descends into the clouds for this event, but does not return to the earth.
Now, at the Second Coming the picture is completely different!
Our Lord descends in the same manner as He departed, which is slowly, through the clouds with all eyes upon Him. He returns to and puts His feet on the Mount of Olives, from whence He left.
There is an irreconcilable difference in the description of these two events. They can’t be and are not the same event. They are distinctly separate by the speed of the events, the place of the events and the people concerned.
The first is for the Church, the second is with the Church.
The great realisation:
A pre-tribulation rapture will produce a great shock on all those left behind. They will have to come up with some explanation. The devil may provide this in the form of a UFO invasion which has taken born-again believers or something like that.
The immediate disappearance of true believers will cause a sudden searching of hearts by all left behind. But it will also turn many against God. Later in the tribulation we see the full manifestation of this as people, knowing that God is causing the judgements, curse and blaspheme God:
Revelation 16:21 “...They blasphemed God because of the plague...”
►The rapture will be a big shock for many. It will bring them to the instant realisation that God judges and they have been found wanting! The rapture itself will be one of the big causes of mass repentance upon this world.
There is no rapture at the end of the tribulation!
The Bible does not describe a rapture at the end of the tribulation anywhere. There is no such verse. There are verses showing the “rapture” of the wicked into hell, but nothing that can be described as an atomic snatching to meet the Lord in the air.
The only way the post-tribbers can “meet the Lord” is by taking pre-tribulation verses and making them fit at the end of the tribulation... and they simply don’t fit!
Post- tribbers have to use an illogical argument. They must believe that our Lord descends from heaven, then somewhere around cloud height the rapture must take place. They must then take part in a marriage feast in heaven, be rewarded and have a good time in heaven. This must all take place in the time- period between our Lord’s descent to earth, and His feat touching the Mount of Olives. (See the giant U-turn diagram above.)
Why does the Bible differentiate between the two comings with our Lord’s feet? Why does the Bible say our Lord’s feet actually touch the Mount of Olives at the Second Coming? It’s to make a clear difference between the two comings. At the rapture our Lord’s feet do not come into the picture. He descends as far as the clouds to receive us into heaven.
A short-sighted injustice:
After the messages to the seven churches in the opening three chapters of the book of Revelation there is no further account of the Church on the earth. Chapter four onwards describes the tribulation period. We do see many people being “saved” in the tribulation, but these are not part of the Church. These are what we call tribulation saints.
From chapter four onwards we see saved Jews performing the work of evangelism. We see a distinctly Jewish flavour of the time. There are no apostles, evangelists, pastors etc. There are 144000 saved Jews, and two Jewish witnesses all doing the work of the ministry. Where is the Church?
The absence of the Church and presence of the Jews doing the work of the Church in the tribulation verses is of profound importance. Don’t let people fool you into believing otherwise. (I have never read or heard a reasonable explanation for this from the post- tribbers – ever!)
A fact just as important is the presence of the Church in heaven during this time, being rewarded and participating in the “marriage feast.”
Some post -tribbers explain the absence of the Church in the Revelation from chapter four onwards this way: They say that Revelation is not in chronological order, so you can’t refer to believers in heaven, because that could fit in anywhere in time, because there is no chronological order.
Sorry, that’s not true. It most certainly is in chronological order from day one to the end, 2520 days later. The Revelation begins with the tribulation, runs through all the judgements to the mid- tribulation point, and ends with the climactic events of the Second Coming.
Obviously there are some things that are allegorical and apply to any time- period, but you can’t apply allegory to whatever suits you!
The big shock
The rapture will not be for all professing Christians. It will only be those truly born of the Spirit of God and those who are truly His. (eg. Matthew 7:21-23.)The rapture will show who is who in the zoo! It will separate between so-called believers who have no experience of an indwelling Lord. It will separate between the human good and the Godly good!
The rapture will not be for all those who believe in God. It will be for those who are born- again by the Spirit of God and those who believe in Yeshua as the one and only God. It will only be for those who have been saved by the shed blood of Yeshua and the work of the cross of Calvary.
It will not be for those who believe in many ways to God. It will not be for those who believe that other gods have a valid road to heaven.
The rapture will not be for vampire blood-drinkers or cannibals. It is the Catholic church that believes in transubstantiation, which is the wine becoming the actual blood of Yeshua when they drink it at communion. They believe that the bread becomes the actual body of Messiah when they eat it (or Him)!
The Catholics do not teach a pre-tribulation rapture. They believe in the witch-tale of purgatory as a purifying force.
Isaiah 42:16 “I will bring the blind by a way they did not know; I will lead them in paths they have not known; I will make darkness light before them."
1Thessalonians 5:4 "You brethren are not in darkness that the Day should overtake you as a thief. You are all children of light."
1 Corinthians 2:9 “Eye has not seen nor ear heard, nor have entered into the heart of man the things which God has prepared for those that love Him”
I took this picture early in the morning on foot in my favourite place, the world’s biggest inland river delta, the Okavango in Botswana. I’ve been fortunate to travel and work (photo/journalism) there hundreds of times. I’ve also led and been involved with numerous mission trips to the surrounding villages as well as to the secretive, nomadic, Xuun (Kung) river Bushmen, who dwell on some of the large islands. (The 15,000sqkm Okavango has just become a world heritage site.) If you want to see some more images of this amazing place, click Here.
Isaiah 44:22 “I have blotted out like a thick cloud, your transgressions and like a mist, your sins. Return to Me for I have redeemed you.”
Shalom and grow in grace!